INTERVIEWS
Interview with Brian Dixon : Light Follows 2013
This is an interview I did with Brian Dixon in 2013 - a conversation whilst walking around Camden.
Interview Questions (3.0) Age: 30 Gende R: Male Occupation: Web Developer Place of Residence: London Method of contact: Recommendation of an earlier participant.
Questions
Q: How often do you ‘go for a walk’ in an urban setting?
Am— R: In an urban setting. We’re taking about urban recreational walking. I’d say probably once a week. No that’s a lie. I mean I walk pretty much every single day and at lunch time at the moment as well.
R: Recreationally? Recreationally, doing big hikes I’d say probably once every two months or once every month or so. And then once a week I go on some kind of recreational walk in the city.
Q: Generally, what motivates you to do so?
Am— well, as I was saying before, I find, one of the things I find about walking is the amount of experience that I feel that I get from walking. And just in terms of what, you know, the stuff you don’t get when you just sit in an enclosed area in an office or a in a kind-of class oom or in a library or that stuff, that stuff really and also with the city it’s really good. You know, the city is an incredibly interesting place, with loads of stuff going on.
Am— [there’s] an incredible amount of information out there… It sounds like I’m a bit, it sounds like I’m expediting the information, you know, I don’t mean that the information is being “had.” I just mean its experience. You know, it’s more like the way you feel after you’ve done it. And with the stuff that happens whilst you walk and the potential of what happens when you walk: the people you meet, you know, the surprising stuff that just pops up. The stuff that you find. You know, you might just find something lying around you pick up and start carrying around with you. You find a new route or you know, you start to also build a map of your local area as well so you know it better.
Am— you take different routes or you get a feel; all the different areas have different feelings, a—, to them.
Am— And also the conversation when you walk asa well with people. That’s probably the main thing you’re getting out really. Probably the most important thing. [Direction is momentarily discussed and decided upon.]
Q: How much attention would you say you pay to the features of route you travel along?
Am— it depends really how intentional I would say that my walk is intended to be in terms of, you know, if I’m walking and I have a specific sort of interest like a architecture or
Am— you know I, If I’m walking a geographical feature or if I’m following a canal or if I’m sort-coming across parks, or I’m going through a historical area compared to a kind-of more modern area… I think I’ll generally browse those kind-of things anyway.
Am— and I’ll have a sort-of, you know, I’ll pass judgement on but am… generally, I’d like my walks to be more structured and the ones I’ve done that are a bit more structured in terms of where I’ve designed them in a particular way, like, possibly in a quite novel way using like a, the map thing that I came up with or a sort-of psychogeographic technique or maybe walking with a friend in an area which I don’t really know that well
Am— …would, even their directing the intention of the walk, then a— those things
Am— there things that I prefer if I’m going for a walk. You know, as opposed to it being a walk by chance if you see what I mean, or a walk that’s random. Randomness…
R: Okay. Yeah.
Q: Are the locations you visit mostly familiar or unfamiliar? Generally, in London,
Am— I’d say that the routes, really depends on my lifestyle at that time because obviously, I think around the university I know that place quite well but obviously in London the space is so complex that, you know, you can make it as familiar or as unfamiliar as you like. You know the regular routes that I would take to get from A to B, am, could easily be broken just by taking a small side—, taking a small side road. Or for example, moving to a different area, a different part of London, which I did quite recently just throws the whole thing out of the window because London is so— disparate in terms of the way the different areas of it feel. And you know, part of [inaudible] living is south London feels completely different to living in North London.
Q: What would inspire you to take an unfamiliar route? In London the city, it’s very interesting what you were saying earlier on about there being lines, boundaries and edges and the sort-of things that stop you going any further. Because for me, in terms because I’ve done quite a lot of travelling, cycling, long cycling tours.
Am— you know every single day I was going for me somewhere unfamiliar but at the same time since being in London I’ve also explored psychogeography and this kind of thing and it got me interested in sort-of urban exploration stuff and that kind-of thing which I haven’t really explored in any great detail… it does make me realise that there’s a ton of unfamiliar places and spaces in the city which I wouldn’t, would never go to unless I had a group of people who were with me who were on the same sort of level of consciousness about what exactly we were up to. I mean there’s all this sort of urban exploration stuff it’s fascinating, it’s not for everyone. I don’t even know if it is for me but you know this idea of sort of exploring the subterranean spaces and you know, these sort-of networks under the city and but in terms of an unfamiliar route in a city I wouldn’t think twice about it, about taking an unfamiliar route in general.
Q: Before deciding to take an unfamiliar route, is there any particular information you feel you would need to know? Well I would, I think that having a map… If I go walking I generally take a compass with me, you know, I’ll take my A-to-Z, phone and a GPS.
R: You are prepared. I don’t, I hardly every use my GPS… to be honest. I use my phone if I am feeling very lazy.
Am— I really enjoy using my A-to-Z but I would generally use that only if I was really intending to go from A-to-B, by like a very quick route or if I was felt if I was lost or wanted to get back home somewhere. The compass however is quite an interesting, quite a fun way to… navigate. Yeah is you just follow, if you go south,
Am— you know because you never go “south” you never go directly ‘south”…have to go [inaudible] wandering off at a tangent.
Q: Is there any thing that you feel would hold you back? [Answered above in Question 5].
Q: Have you ever walked through an unfamiliar location without a fixed plan or route in mind?
Am— …
Am— …I don’t know, I have yeah and generally I used to think that that would lead to unfamiliar things and I wasn’t trying hard enough but these days I think that it’s actually one of the best ways to go a very conservative route where you actually end up falling back on the old places, the old routes that you do know: routines. And even the Situationists, there’s a quote from the Situationists, I think from Guy Debord, with you know …I can’t remember the exact quote but its precisely that’s where it comes from, my source, qualification of my, that backs up my feelings and experiences about it, about, about, about that, leaving things to chance. That’s where it comes from. And this idea of designing in some cipher or sort-of
Am— leverage some sort of technique, that am brings in a bit more structure even if it’s a very small thing, like a dice, or like a program I suppose in a way,
Am— can sort-of break you out of your routines and sometimes offer up some nice …experiences and ways to sort-of see more unfamiliar spaces and things like that. Which is a bit counter intuitive… yeah…
Q: If yes, can you please describe the experience? [Answered above in Question 8]
Q: When you are in an unfamiliar location what resources do you usually draw on in order to find your way as you walk? Well, I’d say that from a very vanilla point of view when it comes to walking I recently, it’s not a good example for what we’re talking about at the moment but I got couple of bare foot running shoes, so I got five fingered shoes and minimal barefooted shoes that don’t have much padding on them and I find that connects you very well with— It also adds another element to the walking experience. I’ve even walked, I’ve walked on trails, sort of off road trails and stuff
Am— wearing these sort of five-fingered gloves and I… there really is something there about these regular… [Discusses direction]. Kind-of wearing regular hiking boots and having loads and loads of padding under your feet and it does, it really does disconnect you from the ground.
Am— so I’d recommend that wearing some of these sort of barefoot shoes. I noticed even [another participant] had a pair… But, you know having all the regular clothes and stuff, being prepared in that sense is kind-of a bit. You’ve got to be worthwhile doing that stuff
Am— If I was going to do an unfamiliar route, was that the question?
R: Well not necessarily, just as you walk, to find your way as you walk, so it doesn’t have to be unfamiliar. I generally would follow my nose unless, you know, unless I— particularly wanted to go from A-to-B, a kind-of slightly more planned route, or designed walk.
Am— which I would like to have more time to do. But you have to have people who are on the same sort of level of time consciousness, the same sort of mindset to be will to do that kind-of thing. But you know if somebody, if you’ve got a friend for example who doesn’t do a lot of walking and certainly, you know, is not interested in particularly like doing kind of like a designed walk or a walk using a technique, then it has to be well sort-of designed and
Am— [direction discussed] kind-of well-prepared before you bring that person into that world really. Otherwise, you know, the experience is going to be… it’s not shitter, it’s not going to be a bad experience in terms of it’s not going to be exciting, it’s just going to… you know, the possibilities won’t be there for any kind of experience that will arise, because you’ll fall back on these old routes and patterns… so… but in terms of… For me the city is… it’s, there’s a huge amount of meaning in everything that you see when you’re in the city. You know, whether it’s seeing sort-of vegetation around or things that stop you from moving.
Am— things that direct you in a particular way, things that attract you like lights or whatever. Busy roads have a certain attraction to them. Sort-of a flow and an energy to them. You know, noises… It almost attracts me down there [points to an alleyway] that’s kind of like a mechanical machine that’s talking to you, that you know, the belly of the beast.
Am— you know, it’s a dark alley; it’s a dark road. It kind of draws you down because it’s intriguing.
Am— you know, there’s a part of me deciding – one part of me is attracted to the road but another part of me is sort-of the dark spaces and what they can offer. And the possibility of, you know, the familiar or the unfamiliar. Kind-of like you were, you know, like you were asking me on the last point. So— you know, the city is, the structure is always having that conversation. You’re always in conversation with the city and with the spaces, whether you like it or not really… Yeah.
R: Yes. Yes.
Q: Thinking specifically of (city) maps, what features of do you find most useful as you walk? On a map? On a city map?
R: On a city map.
Am— Do you mean the maps that are in context already or— ones that I bring.
R: Both, both. Both of them actually. So the ones either you encounter or the ones that you bring along, is there any features on them? Anything that brings out a historical context of where you are has an immense about of value to it I think. Because the unpacking of a historical context about, about a space gives it a huge amount of meaning. You know, they could have, the town could have made a poor decision and decided to raise a whole area to build a whole load of modern apartment blocks but that area can still retain a huge amount of meaning if you understand it’s historical context and background.
Am— you know, Ian Sinclair and stuff talk about that all the time with their walks around sort-of Hackney and their walks around Hackney if you look on YouTube, search for, you know, like, there’s Nicholas Papademetriou. And there’s a documentary called The Perambulator, I think… Perambulator is that right?
R: It would be yeah. It’s the walker for the child. The pram basically. The buggy. It’s the same word perambulator pram. That’s where it comes from. Oh right okay. Then
Am— you know, and he will sort of look at, he’ll take it to an extreme and there’ll be like a concrete pillar or something, you know, that’s been worn away and he’ll explain how it’s oozing, like you know, it’s oozing the memories of that place, or the eroded aspects of it, or some weather aspects of it compared to the constant need to upgrade and
Am— make everything look pristine and a sort of virgin space and flashy glass windows and you know, deck it out with a John Lewis a—
Am— lovely interior, and you know, invite the latest investment banker guy, whoever he is and choose an apartment or whatever. And I mean, stuff like this church, for example, attracts me in terms of, the way the pollution is or whatever it is on there, I don’t know what it is. Smoke, sort-of caught up on the stonework… And I mean I personally I’m attracted to sort-of erosion and if you look at the church in context I mean the… It changes the feeling of the whole area. For me.
Am— you know it’s quite a cold presence, this particular church for some reason. I don’t know why. I think it’s the sort-of, it invokes a sadness.
Am— because it’s quite, it’s a grand building.
Am— and it attracts me almost going in to it and to sort of take shelter there. But I feel like I can’t, I’m not allowed to because you know, the building— itself belies to me a rule from a different era where it would have been a place of shelter, where it would have been allowed to have been a place of shelter whereas it’s not even allowed to be that. You know what I mean?
R: [In agreement:] No. I do know what you mean. I’m agreeing that it’s not allowed to be what it says it is on the tin. Which is weird because it’s just sitting… I mean it’s a place of refuge isn’t it? Supposedly.
R: Also a place of worship. And worship. And
Am— there’s a force that’s trying to gentrify it. Or trying to charge, trying to turn it into… It’s clichéd to say it’s [inaudible] or whatever but it’s, I think there’s an element in there… I feel like I would probably meet a priest in there or something. Who I would take to. He would have the same ideas as me. About it.
R: [Laughs:] You just have to find that priest. It should still be a place of shelter… maybe I’d meet a guy who wouldn’t give a shit.
R: That’s the chance you have to take isn’t it? Well I probably— it’s a shame, I wouldn’t even get the chance. Maybe we should try and see whose inside. Visiting churches while walking seems quite a cliché doesn’t it really? The only interesting place. That’s not talking about Camden, Camden’s… Actually I did a walk around here once. Using one of the Wondermap maps.
R: Okay yeah. And
Am— I remember walking through Camden for the first time ever. Thinking how bizarre and sort-of cartoon-like it is and it’s like walking through the set of Who Framed Roger Rabbit. You know like, there’s all these immense over-sized
Am— sort-of
Am— there’s a chair attached to this huge, it’s actually outside of this furniture shop and a few sort of
Am— … pairs of trainers on the outside. It’s like walking through sort-of Disney world or a— Universal Studios or something. It’s like walking through a sort-of a film set and
Am— like it’s the simulacra element to it is quite intense. Like over-there you can see this sort of Roman or whatever it is Egyptian, Greek or whatever…
R: No it’s funny. I think it’s actually industrial revolution. Oh is it? Oh right okay. [Directions are discussed].
Q: Do you find any map-features particularly useful when trying to stick to a general direction? I say that physical geography is the thing that I would, that something inside of me latches onto as I walk.
Am— which keeps me going in the right direction and kind-of
Am— For example in a place like Dubai it’s impossible to connect to the physical geography. That centring physical geography that gives me a sense of direction. In Dubai it’s completely, it wasn’t there in the first place. Because it was just a desert in the first place.
R: True, yeah. It’s a bit like this. [The participant is referring the market setting that we are walking through]. The whole of Dubai is like this place. You feel like here, it’s disorientation. You know? It’s like what the fuck is it? Am I? It’s like Middle East, Middle Eastern patterns. And sort-of pastiche and sort-of like a… a… MTV made physical. And things like that. Which is fascinating. Post-modern, I suppose you might call it. Yeah and sort-of fetish, or fetishism. Yeah and really, like a… proper thing stopping you. [Referring to a gate that was obstructing the way ahead]. And that’s really surprising, I never expected that to appear. And walking through here, you know, it’s right in your face. [Inaudible]. Around here there’s the feeling that you’re probably being watched by a lot of CCTV cameras. So if you did climb over, because of the visitors around here as well you’d very quickly get apprehended.
R: That would be the end of that. That would be the end of that.
Q: Could you please describe how you make use of these map features? [Answered above in Question Q:.]
Q: Do you, or have you ever, used a map on a mobile phone to find your way while walking in an urban setting?
Am— well. The thing is with things like Google Maps and that stuff like that the walk, for me, using those type of maps becomes like a last resort. Or it becomes almost a sort-of necessity. You kind of rely on it. And
Am— that’s where it becomes dangerous because
Am— I walk, I might just get out my phone and start relying on it as a thing that, as the main map that would help me get home or wherever I need to be
Am— .Similarly with the
Am— you know… it’s a kind-of like similar thing when I was cycling in Mongolia
Am— and we had kind well defined maps. Actually no, we didn’t have any maps at all on a GPS but we had the towns well-defined on the map. It didn’t tell you any information apart from where the towns were. More or less where the towns were but we didn’t… [Directions are discussed]. Using the GPS compared to asking people directions…
R: Yes, yes, yeah. …just meant that when we used the GPS we talked to a lot less people. And the conversation was with the device. As opposed to with a person. And the device was a lot less communicative than the sort of average Mongolian even. At the average Mongolian can more or less tell that you are lost. And like show you a place to go where as the GPS if you asked it where, if you, if you just told it you were lost, if you hadn’t already programmed it to tell you where to go at the right time and the right moment the GPS is a lot less helpful than your average Mongolian that can speak the language or— or— whatever and would just [be] intent on staring at you for half an hour when you first met him and inviting you to his yurt. Which was a lot, generally more a— exciting than having this really, really frustrating piece of technology, plastic box in your hand. You know, then you’re just there with your angry best mate to argue with… basically so…
Q: If yes, can you please describe how you use them? I mean the context of obviously your, the app that your planning on doing I would say that you’re kind-of, you know, this technology is [or has] incredible possibility as well.
Am— but I would say that made would have to be quite simple.
Am— in the sense that it shouldn’t really engage the mind too much. So that it shouldn’t be, it shouldn’t have to be sort-of a lot of mind work that goes into it. It should just be a kind-of
Am— guide, I would say actually the more I think about it treat it like a person, like whatever you’re app is doing imagine you’re going on a walk with your app and the app was just a friend. And it would be like the ideal friend to go on a walk with who would take you down, take you to the places you know you want to go but you never do. Or what would that ideal friend be that who had all those techniques? But never imposed them on you, just kind-of
Am— , just sort of
Am— , …you know put them out there, stirred things up a bit for you, you know, that kind of thing. Just like how you might read a book and it would inspire you to behave in a particular way but it doesn’t just lay the law down
Am— about how you should do such and such a thing. [Directions are discussed]. Basically yeah, I would say that it’s the same with anything, if there’s going to be rules then there shouldn’t be hard and fast rules – they should be open to be maybe even updated. You know, like people should be able to add their own experiences and ideas but it shouldn’t be like a harvesting of, you know, maps or ideas at the same time, you know. It’s not an easy balance to strike.
Q: If yes, can you please describe the positive and negative aspects of the experience? Yeah, well I think that, I wrote, you know, a technology essay for my MA and I was basically criticising the mobile phone and I was just saying that you know this world of possibilities that appears to be opened up is just really, there’s a world where you can imagine whatever you like and you can make an app and it’s supposed to have a such and such affect and what is written about that is affect intentional affect that its supposed to have not always the affect that it does actually have because maybe it wasn’t designed very well. And maybe it wasn’t, maybe it had an unforeseen circumstances in the world, you know, maybe you invented a world that maybe by the fact that you invented that world that you also sort-of invented the negative side of it. You know like the inventor of the car invented the car crash, is Paul Virilio again. If you invent the boat, the ship, you invent the shipwreck, he said. And so, that’s the thing isn’t it? I mean you’re drawn into the world of the mobile phone and each era has it’s industry and each era has it’s technology of
Am— sort-of choice. And of att—, that holds the attention. And I don’t know I think you could write endlessly about what the hell it is that why the mobile phone is such a sticky thing with people. And one of my old lecturers said that, he came in one day and said that
Am— he’d been reading something that basically said that people can’t interact with objects in any other way than seeing them as people. I mean, so that’s fascinating in terms of the mobile phone which is a sort-of blank canvass you make it exactly as you like, you know. It can give you all the desires that you want to fulfil. It can take you wherever you want to go, you know. You can be creative with it or whatever. You can communicate, it talks to you. You know there’s millions of thing that it does, of course it doesn’t do any of them. It doesn’t do them as well as your imagination. It creates that addiction. But I would also say that it’s not about some overactive mind or imagination of humans or addiction of humans but also to do with
Am— the sort of aspects of a— well… people who take their phones and they a— kind-of, I don’t know really… They have their, there are certain uses for the phone and… it’s not just kind-of a big… overall reactive kind-of overinvestment in the possibilities of the phone that’s the interesting part but a— …on the one hand there is a very practical sort-of use of the technology
Am— And there was something else that I wanted to say but it’s gone out of my bloody head!
R: Hate when that happens. Ah… a—, …am. What was the original question again?
R: We were talking about the positives and negatives. I was asking you to elaborate as you had done earlier and you have done a pretty good job so far. Yeah. I was going to, I was basically going to say, well part of what I was going to say was that maybe we’re just over analysing it was well.
R: Quite likely. Between the phone and… One aspect of it – the one I think I’d forgotten, that went out of my head was almost like in sport its called the engram where you
Am— where you get used to certain moves and certain movements and habits of movement and stuff where as and it’s that. It’s the habit of checking something and getting into this routine.
R: In which, sorry? Say that again. The habit, the kind-of routine of the app. You know like I go and check my mail to see if I—. You know, one day I receive a letter in the mail, which makes me incredibly happy so from then on you know, I’m going to check the mailbox to see if I get anymore letters and then get happy. Maybe this email is going to be the one that makes me a load of money.
Am— because once somebody emailed me and gave me money or something, or gave me a job or whatever and then you check your mail over and over and over again until somebody sends you a mail that makes you happy and you just want that feeling of happiness again. And you don’t want to feel lonely.
Am— so I think the phone, maybe people just don’t want to be lonely I think. Sometimes it just comes down to not being lonely doesn’t it?
Q: Considering the design of a ‘standard’ map, whether paper or digital, how do you think it could be improved? It would be good if maps were sort-of appealing to my emotions more. Because that would open up just a whole other space I think, if maps are intentionally emotional. And some of this, you know, psychogeographic information about
Am— you know, this idea about just becoming aware that this is a barrier to you and you decided this a barrier sub-consciously without realising it. And you won’ go beyond there. Unless somebody just explains to you, oh you’ve become you know, a— closed off to the fact that you could actually go this way or that way or— you could traverse that or at least understand why you can’t go that way. You know, or a— you know, try to record some of the feelings about how it makes you feel that you can’t go that way. Or just express them, not even record them. [Laughs:] Vent them possibly. Not getting angry or just being critical about the spaces. Is quite, is quite just a nice thing. I suppose it’s a normal quite human thing. You know, because you don’t vocalise your sort-of dis-please-ment about you know, each little such and such thing that stopping you from you know, going this direction or whatever, or maybe it’s just a desire that you want to live out or go to an area that, you know, something that just makes you go “Oh shit I never been here before” and you know “I’ve never planned on going here but I’m really happy to be here now” I mean I, that would be great. I don’t know if that was anything to do with your question at all?
R: It is! No it is. It definitely is to do with my question. It’s totally different now by the canal [that we were walking along at that point]. Ian Sinclair talked about canals, these sort-of like a— veins of the city, like… [inaudible]?
R: Haven’t got to that stage yet. There’s an amazing like different atmosphere.
R: Well immediately there’s no traffic, that’s certainly the biggest thing.
Q: Finally, do you feel your use of a map, whether paper or digital, affects your impression of the environment? Well I suppose maps have a lot of different kind-of uses and I think it’s useful to sort-of see them in terms of those categories, to, certainly in terms of, some maps are meant to help you get from A-to-B more effectively, some maps are meant to help you find new places
Am— a— some maps are meant to sort of map not physical space but
Am— you know, mental space, ideas
Am— and that kind of thing. Some maps are historical – show you what’s changed.
Am— some are just nice because they’re amazing nice material. Like maybe an old map and the paper is like something worthwhile in itself in the way that it’s, you just want to keep it as an object. You know? It’s an historical kind-of object.
Am— …Maps can be kind of black and white or they can be in colour and then colour have there own emotional affect as well.
Am— obviously you being visual. Having the visual design aspect to it.
Am— I think maps can control how you— think about an area. How you perceive an area. They can open up space by inviting something. So there’s meaning all around an area but not in that space. Then this area that you’ve deliberately left out meaning and it invites interpretation
Am— you know, so that’s quite nice. Maps link up spaces as well obviously.
Am— You can put one map next to another and you can put wrong maps— You know this old cliché using the wrong map in the space or whatever
Am— You know, I think that maps can be paper, they can be flat, they can be physical, I mean arguably we’re walking the map. Now, you know, the map, we’re… The Baudrillard one was “We’re Living in the Map”. So a— that’s a kind interesting thing to think. And it goes, it’s like back to what I was talking about earlier with being born into a world earlier where
Am— electricity is you know commonly expected
Am— it’s second nature. It feels less real to not have electricity. Than too have. You know it feels real to not have electricity [inaudible], it feels more real to be in a world like this where there’s a functioning lubricated infrastructure
Am— and all that. But I don’t know, for me the question of real is something—. Real is always going to be not graspable by humans.
Am— so a—
R: In that case then there’s a belief in a third party? Some sort of reality held away from us that we can’t access yet still exists?
Am— well, I really love Varela, Francisco Varela you should look him up. I don’t know if you know him. But he came up with this theory of autopoiesis writing this called, what was it called?
Am— ah— what it called? Something of knowledge, I can’t remember what it was called… Anyway look up Francisco Varela and he wrote a book with Umberto Maturana, I think his name was and they were Chilean scientists and also he was a Buddhist in his later life and died of cancer I think in the end but— He said, he had this really nice way of putting it: the bee dreams up the flower and the flower dreams up the bee. If you take away one of them then you take away the other one.
Am— so I mean, some things only exist because of thing there propping, the thing they’re propped up against. If you see what I mean so it’s like the house of cards kind of. But a— I think that’s pretty self-evident because everything is shifting around and you take, you know, you move something some where and that changes conditions and you change the conditions of the environment and that changes things as well for other people and for entities in the environment. A— so— so yeah, so…
Am— …a— I mean like you say. Third party. Inaccessible. Of course there’s, Varella says that
Am— organisms basically invent their own realties. And
Am— you know, from the point of view of hu— we built the environment around us like this because we’re human and we have particular directionality and extension of our limbs and our bodies and eyes to see in certain distances and all that kind of stuff. And you know if I was, if frogs were just as able to affect their environment then they would you know probably build it slightly differently.
Am— there’s also another argument of maybe frogs will one day evolve to be able to influence their environments. But maybe they won’t because humans will have destroyed it. By the time… or it will be beyond all recognition. But a— a— yeah I mean, in terms of the map, going back to the real. [Directions are discussed]. I mean, I think that’s one of things with—. I went through a stage where when I went out on a walk I tried look for something you know this concept of the real. And I was like, I thought the real was literally a place where— you know, you could see. And it was just—. What I was doing was actually expanding my reality. Which it’s then, to an extent, is actually getting yourself closer to the real if you like. The more experience you have, in my opinion, you know, the closer you are to the way, to how things are. Maybe to think how things are more truthfully which is— I think some people have a desire to know things more truthfully and some people aren’t so bothered about that but I’m sure it’s kind of a philosopher’s view point. Isn’t it?